Dear NHFNP,
Firstly, I really do totally 'get' where you are coming from. If you read all the posts in this thread, as well as the post REAL LOVE in the thread on 'Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements' you will be able to get a better idea of what is going on in Real Love.
I was nearly pulled in, and can see exactly what they are doing with your son. I however, had a breakdown some years ago and have had lots of treatment on the NHS in the UK, as well as hypnotherapy and some spiritual and unconventional stuff too. I can see clearly if someone is not well emotionally as I have been in that place (somewhere I don't wish to go again - I was on suicide watch, self-harmed, all sorts). RealLove preys on those who are weak and emotionally vulnerable, but if you are not in the category they will try their utmost to convince you that you need to be doing RealLove. I am a whole person and from day one I didn't feel right about this organisation - I challenged it every step of the way. I was provoked so many times into behaving angrily (although it didn't work) and I asked why they keep doing this. I was told it was for my own good - that they were helping me, they were 'loving me' by doing this. They wanted to bring out the darkness. Well, they are not professionals, and I have already done masses of work on myself so they can try as much as they want but they are not going to get the response they want to see. Anyway, I too went to groups first of all. I was a taken aback by them to be honest. And yes, like your son was amazed at seeing so many desperate souls feeling totally unloved and (supposedly) having never received any form of unconditional love, I was amazed at this too. Other people are as well. But, when you are 'whole' and a bit stronger (plus, I have studied psychology at university level as a part of my profession) as well as knowledgeable, I was not going to be fooled by this. In fact, I can see very clearly how they try to fool people into believing their ways.
This is because Greg Baer says that the whole world (yes, the whole world) does not know how to love unconditionally. Only RealLove can do this. Yes, he actually believes this and so do all the people doing RealLove. If you join RealLove and follow the principles devised by Greg Baer you will learn how to be unconditionally loving. But..... in order to give love and be an unconditionally loving person you have to first learn how to 'be loved properly'. This is because Greg says that no one was parented properly or loved properly by their parents. No one. In the whole world. Ever.
So, we are to submit to Greg's way and allow ourselves to 'be loved' by one of Greg's team (or Greg himself) because only 'they' know how to give love properly (because, guess what? Yep, no one in the whole wide world knows how to give love properly except Greg Baer and his appointed few). Once we have 'been loved' properly for some time we will then be allowed to give our love to others. This could take years. Getting Loved means having a special coach (known as a daddy or a mummy) who you have regular contact with and who you tell the truth about your thoughts, behaviours and everything to, and they will not shame you for your bad stuff but instead they will 'accept' you, which means 'love you'. Every time you are stressed or anxious or have related badly or had a bad row or something, you get a call arranged with your coach who will 'love you'. This is called 'Getting Loved'. This process goes on and supposedly over time you will fill up with love and one day be able to give your love to others - but only when you are told to!
The other major thing Greg says is that every single person in the whole world is suffering from a condition that he has invented, which he calls PCSD, or Post-Childhood-Stress-Disorder. Yes. Everyone in the world. It is not recognised as a psychological disorder, and Greg admits it never will be. This disorder which RealLove says 'EVERYONE HAS' is due to our parents not loving us properly when we were raised. Despite how much love exists in families and between people, RealLove and Greg state emphatically that this is NOT real or genuine love and that it is only conditional love. So your son will have been told this several times until he eventually gave in and believed it. I repeat - everyone not doing RealLove is not really doing love properly, is not genuine with their love, and is only loving conditionally. No one in the world knows how to love properly - only RealLove knows the answers to how to love properly. This is what has been drummed into him. The focus is on the negative stuff from childhood and life - there no emphasis or talk about the positive stuff at all. That is completely overlooked. So, while he may have defended himself many a time that the love in his family was real and genuine, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people in the group will have used many a very distorted analogy or metaphor to convince him that he has not been loved at all. They are very good at using what is called the 'double-bind' which is so confusing, especially if you have already been fooled with several analogies and metaphors and are still trying to process them. When you add a double-bind on top it then sounds like the RealLove folk have some amazing knowledge about all this love stuff, and you are just ignorant because you can't work it out for yourself. It is however, total trickery, and designed to confuse the person. They also use a staring technique as well (there is information about this somewhere else on this site). Used with all the other verbal techniques it is very intimidating (as it is supposed to be) and totally shuts your mind down as to being able to respond and defend yourself appropriately. Clever.
So, after what is known as a 'slow poach' where the person will attend groups and read books, maybe watch some Greg videos and hang around with group people, the person will eventually submit to being wrong and that RealLove is what they really need. They know exactly what methods to use to wear you down. If he decides to go the whole way he'll end up having what is called an 'Intervention'. A weekend long retreat to be fully psychologically profiled and every deep wound and negative aspect of life is drawn out. This is totally unnecessary for what is sold as 'life coaching' to learn how to be unconditionally loving. Totally wrong! Many times what this process does is to be a 're-birthing process' for the person. To be born again. Yes. Reborn. So, as Greg says, we are all only 2 or 3 years old emotionally. None of us has grown up emotionally and we are all stuck - therefore needing RealLove to free us, to fix us. This often involves the person getting naked (like a baby being born) and to lie in the arms of the coach and be nursed, and loved and kissed relentlessly like a newborn baby. This lying in the arms of another and being a baby is called 'holding' and is done in groups a lot. At this point in the weekend retreat the person will choose new parents. Yes! New parents. They will select a new daddy and a new mummy or just one or the other, and this new parent will parent them properly. As the new parent the daddy/mummy (aka coach) will be there for them and take on the role of parent and thus parent the person properly through the childhood they should have had while in adulthood. Being childish and acting childlike is promoted. Most people doing RealLove do actually 'believe' that they are only 2 years old. Thus, by choosing new parents the person will reject their true parents - even those still living. So, in answer to your question NHFNP what has happened to your son in rejecting his family is definitely part of the process of RealLove.
And yes, there is some useful bits in the books, but they are mostly written in a thought-reform style to mould your mind into believing that RealLove and unconditional love are actually one and the same thing. Which of course, they are not. Greg also believes that the whole world, basically everyone not doing RealLove is insane. The coaches are NOT trained to do psychological work, and this is exactly what they are doing. They say they are not, but they are. I am worried for those who fall into this organisation who need to have professional help, because a lot of damage can be done in the wrong hands. But RealLove clings to the weak and vulnerable because they make the best adherents who will spread the RealLove message far and wide (in total ignorance of course). Too much personal information is shared with people, and this breaches all forms of professional practice. The truth telling in groups and with coaches is healthy in some respects, but does not serve to heal people in the way RealLove believes it will. Only proper help will do that.
I am glad a health professional has seen what RealLove can do to a person. I have beaten my head against a wall trying to get people to see RealLove for what it really is - a cult organisation using mass thought-reform techniques to coerce people into submitting to one mans crazy ideology. RealLove at some point will tell persons to go out and 'find a religion' as another form of true unconditional love. But only when they have received the real thing first - as in, been totally submissive to the RealLove process and 'been loved' properly by a daddy or mummy for a long period of time and are then deemed to have the ability to love properly. If you have a religion before you are told to get one, then it is not real and never was. Most people will not turn to their family faith tradition but instead will 'find' Mormonism. Why? Because that is Greg's faith, and he is high up in his church and is idolised by people doing RealLove. Also, many of the principles of Mormonism are written into the principles for being unconditionally loving that Greg has designed. Therefore, it goes without saying that the principles of Mormonism align the most with RealLove. Interestingly, if you are receiving coaching (which would only last for a short period and come to a conclusion) then it should not matter which religion you choose and whether or not it aligned with the principles of a coaching program. After all, the coaching program would only be a very short part of your life, just a passing moment, so why would you choose something to align with a coaching program? Clearly, we wouldn't. But RealLove is not a coaching program like it sells itself to be, so being a Mormon takes on a new meaning. Most people have turned to Mormonism.
Like you, I too have grave reservations about Greg's story. There are errors. I have felt that although he 'tried' all the conventional mental health treatments as well as hypnotherapy, they must have worked because you cannot just invent a psychological program like he has while you are broken. That is impossible - I know, I have been there in that dark place. You have to be well and truly healed and a lot more whole before you are remotely capable of just reading, let alone studying! In reading several books about cults I can see that he fits the profile perfectly for being a sociopath, with borderline narcissistic tendencies. Everything fits. Everything is perfect textbook. The sad thing is, that no one doing RealLove can see this or wants to believe it, so they shut their eyes to it. They think that I am the insane one, that I am hurt and desperate. I have been told countless time that I 'need a daddy' that I need to 'be loved' that I need 'to do RealLove' and that if I don't then I will be alone for the rest of my life, I will never be loved properly by anyone, I will only attract and repeat the bad relationships of the past. Yet I stand my ground every time. RealLove is NOT the answer and is fatally flawed.
There is this focus on all things negative and dark. Too much judgement, labelling and analysis of self and everyone and every interaction. There is complete dependence and/or co-dependence on the daddy/mummy to love them - instead of accepting any true, genuine and actual unconditional love right in front of their eyes RL people will reject it as being only conditional and false, so instead will save up their hurt and their stresses for a group session in order to jump into the lap of a coach and be like a baby. The real world is seen as conditional, fake, false and unreal while RL is safe, true and real. Thus is created the 'them-and-us' mentality which divides people from their families and friends. Greg, and coaches also split up couples and marriages as well. Every part of people's lives is managed by their coaches. However, very cleverly, there is anti-litigation clauses in everything. This organisation promotes and gets people to believe that everything they are doing is their own choice, that the person chose what to do at every step of the way. Clever. But if you don't follow what daddy says, then you are not only 'not taking RealLove seriously' which means that RL cannot help you if you don't do what it says to do, or that you are 'not taking your self seriously' and clearly don't want to be a better person at all. However, in the terms of agreement there is a clause which states that RealLove takes no responsibility whatsoever for anything said, advised, or information given by a coach upon which the person acts on. Like I said, clever. The terms also state that coaches will use any and all types of resources to help their clients - yet they don't. What is recommended is a complete and utter immersion into RealLove. We're talking reading all the books, not just once. Going to groups regularly. Having a coach and having calls regularly and seeing the coach for one-to-one's when you can. Watching Greg chat videos as much as you can. Joining in the nightly telephone conference calls. Joining up for the courses and seminars. Joining the 12-month program. Having an intervention. All this costs thousands and will go on for many years. This is not coaching. All this stuff is Greg Baer's RL principles churned over and over and over so that the person becomes totally embroiled in it. They gradually see the world outside of RealLove as bad and uncomfortable as well as all the people in it as bad and unloving while RealLove becomes their safe haven where they can be truly their self. This is not teaching unconditional love by any stretch of the imagination. It is totally unhealthy.
Yes, thank you for noticing all the constant contradictions too! I am so glad it is not just me. This is a dark and sinister organisation not only preying on people's vulnerabilities but destroying relationships and families and even distorting the viewpoints and changing the perspectives of well rounded individuals.
I don't know how to get people out of this, I really don't. I have tried, but I only get verbally attacked in the process. It is difficult to get them out because it is drummed into them that anyone outside of RealLove does not have their best interests at heart. That they have conditional motives and don't really love you, they people are just saying it. I really feel for you. I also can't believe that this sort of thing is happening right in front of our eyes.
I really wish I could help, but I am totally flummoxed myself as to what to do.
Firstly, I really do totally 'get' where you are coming from. If you read all the posts in this thread, as well as the post REAL LOVE in the thread on 'Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements' you will be able to get a better idea of what is going on in Real Love.
I was nearly pulled in, and can see exactly what they are doing with your son. I however, had a breakdown some years ago and have had lots of treatment on the NHS in the UK, as well as hypnotherapy and some spiritual and unconventional stuff too. I can see clearly if someone is not well emotionally as I have been in that place (somewhere I don't wish to go again - I was on suicide watch, self-harmed, all sorts). RealLove preys on those who are weak and emotionally vulnerable, but if you are not in the category they will try their utmost to convince you that you need to be doing RealLove. I am a whole person and from day one I didn't feel right about this organisation - I challenged it every step of the way. I was provoked so many times into behaving angrily (although it didn't work) and I asked why they keep doing this. I was told it was for my own good - that they were helping me, they were 'loving me' by doing this. They wanted to bring out the darkness. Well, they are not professionals, and I have already done masses of work on myself so they can try as much as they want but they are not going to get the response they want to see. Anyway, I too went to groups first of all. I was a taken aback by them to be honest. And yes, like your son was amazed at seeing so many desperate souls feeling totally unloved and (supposedly) having never received any form of unconditional love, I was amazed at this too. Other people are as well. But, when you are 'whole' and a bit stronger (plus, I have studied psychology at university level as a part of my profession) as well as knowledgeable, I was not going to be fooled by this. In fact, I can see very clearly how they try to fool people into believing their ways.
This is because Greg Baer says that the whole world (yes, the whole world) does not know how to love unconditionally. Only RealLove can do this. Yes, he actually believes this and so do all the people doing RealLove. If you join RealLove and follow the principles devised by Greg Baer you will learn how to be unconditionally loving. But..... in order to give love and be an unconditionally loving person you have to first learn how to 'be loved properly'. This is because Greg says that no one was parented properly or loved properly by their parents. No one. In the whole world. Ever.
So, we are to submit to Greg's way and allow ourselves to 'be loved' by one of Greg's team (or Greg himself) because only 'they' know how to give love properly (because, guess what? Yep, no one in the whole wide world knows how to give love properly except Greg Baer and his appointed few). Once we have 'been loved' properly for some time we will then be allowed to give our love to others. This could take years. Getting Loved means having a special coach (known as a daddy or a mummy) who you have regular contact with and who you tell the truth about your thoughts, behaviours and everything to, and they will not shame you for your bad stuff but instead they will 'accept' you, which means 'love you'. Every time you are stressed or anxious or have related badly or had a bad row or something, you get a call arranged with your coach who will 'love you'. This is called 'Getting Loved'. This process goes on and supposedly over time you will fill up with love and one day be able to give your love to others - but only when you are told to!
The other major thing Greg says is that every single person in the whole world is suffering from a condition that he has invented, which he calls PCSD, or Post-Childhood-Stress-Disorder. Yes. Everyone in the world. It is not recognised as a psychological disorder, and Greg admits it never will be. This disorder which RealLove says 'EVERYONE HAS' is due to our parents not loving us properly when we were raised. Despite how much love exists in families and between people, RealLove and Greg state emphatically that this is NOT real or genuine love and that it is only conditional love. So your son will have been told this several times until he eventually gave in and believed it. I repeat - everyone not doing RealLove is not really doing love properly, is not genuine with their love, and is only loving conditionally. No one in the world knows how to love properly - only RealLove knows the answers to how to love properly. This is what has been drummed into him. The focus is on the negative stuff from childhood and life - there no emphasis or talk about the positive stuff at all. That is completely overlooked. So, while he may have defended himself many a time that the love in his family was real and genuine, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people in the group will have used many a very distorted analogy or metaphor to convince him that he has not been loved at all. They are very good at using what is called the 'double-bind' which is so confusing, especially if you have already been fooled with several analogies and metaphors and are still trying to process them. When you add a double-bind on top it then sounds like the RealLove folk have some amazing knowledge about all this love stuff, and you are just ignorant because you can't work it out for yourself. It is however, total trickery, and designed to confuse the person. They also use a staring technique as well (there is information about this somewhere else on this site). Used with all the other verbal techniques it is very intimidating (as it is supposed to be) and totally shuts your mind down as to being able to respond and defend yourself appropriately. Clever.
So, after what is known as a 'slow poach' where the person will attend groups and read books, maybe watch some Greg videos and hang around with group people, the person will eventually submit to being wrong and that RealLove is what they really need. They know exactly what methods to use to wear you down. If he decides to go the whole way he'll end up having what is called an 'Intervention'. A weekend long retreat to be fully psychologically profiled and every deep wound and negative aspect of life is drawn out. This is totally unnecessary for what is sold as 'life coaching' to learn how to be unconditionally loving. Totally wrong! Many times what this process does is to be a 're-birthing process' for the person. To be born again. Yes. Reborn. So, as Greg says, we are all only 2 or 3 years old emotionally. None of us has grown up emotionally and we are all stuck - therefore needing RealLove to free us, to fix us. This often involves the person getting naked (like a baby being born) and to lie in the arms of the coach and be nursed, and loved and kissed relentlessly like a newborn baby. This lying in the arms of another and being a baby is called 'holding' and is done in groups a lot. At this point in the weekend retreat the person will choose new parents. Yes! New parents. They will select a new daddy and a new mummy or just one or the other, and this new parent will parent them properly. As the new parent the daddy/mummy (aka coach) will be there for them and take on the role of parent and thus parent the person properly through the childhood they should have had while in adulthood. Being childish and acting childlike is promoted. Most people doing RealLove do actually 'believe' that they are only 2 years old. Thus, by choosing new parents the person will reject their true parents - even those still living. So, in answer to your question NHFNP what has happened to your son in rejecting his family is definitely part of the process of RealLove.
And yes, there is some useful bits in the books, but they are mostly written in a thought-reform style to mould your mind into believing that RealLove and unconditional love are actually one and the same thing. Which of course, they are not. Greg also believes that the whole world, basically everyone not doing RealLove is insane. The coaches are NOT trained to do psychological work, and this is exactly what they are doing. They say they are not, but they are. I am worried for those who fall into this organisation who need to have professional help, because a lot of damage can be done in the wrong hands. But RealLove clings to the weak and vulnerable because they make the best adherents who will spread the RealLove message far and wide (in total ignorance of course). Too much personal information is shared with people, and this breaches all forms of professional practice. The truth telling in groups and with coaches is healthy in some respects, but does not serve to heal people in the way RealLove believes it will. Only proper help will do that.
I am glad a health professional has seen what RealLove can do to a person. I have beaten my head against a wall trying to get people to see RealLove for what it really is - a cult organisation using mass thought-reform techniques to coerce people into submitting to one mans crazy ideology. RealLove at some point will tell persons to go out and 'find a religion' as another form of true unconditional love. But only when they have received the real thing first - as in, been totally submissive to the RealLove process and 'been loved' properly by a daddy or mummy for a long period of time and are then deemed to have the ability to love properly. If you have a religion before you are told to get one, then it is not real and never was. Most people will not turn to their family faith tradition but instead will 'find' Mormonism. Why? Because that is Greg's faith, and he is high up in his church and is idolised by people doing RealLove. Also, many of the principles of Mormonism are written into the principles for being unconditionally loving that Greg has designed. Therefore, it goes without saying that the principles of Mormonism align the most with RealLove. Interestingly, if you are receiving coaching (which would only last for a short period and come to a conclusion) then it should not matter which religion you choose and whether or not it aligned with the principles of a coaching program. After all, the coaching program would only be a very short part of your life, just a passing moment, so why would you choose something to align with a coaching program? Clearly, we wouldn't. But RealLove is not a coaching program like it sells itself to be, so being a Mormon takes on a new meaning. Most people have turned to Mormonism.
Like you, I too have grave reservations about Greg's story. There are errors. I have felt that although he 'tried' all the conventional mental health treatments as well as hypnotherapy, they must have worked because you cannot just invent a psychological program like he has while you are broken. That is impossible - I know, I have been there in that dark place. You have to be well and truly healed and a lot more whole before you are remotely capable of just reading, let alone studying! In reading several books about cults I can see that he fits the profile perfectly for being a sociopath, with borderline narcissistic tendencies. Everything fits. Everything is perfect textbook. The sad thing is, that no one doing RealLove can see this or wants to believe it, so they shut their eyes to it. They think that I am the insane one, that I am hurt and desperate. I have been told countless time that I 'need a daddy' that I need to 'be loved' that I need 'to do RealLove' and that if I don't then I will be alone for the rest of my life, I will never be loved properly by anyone, I will only attract and repeat the bad relationships of the past. Yet I stand my ground every time. RealLove is NOT the answer and is fatally flawed.
There is this focus on all things negative and dark. Too much judgement, labelling and analysis of self and everyone and every interaction. There is complete dependence and/or co-dependence on the daddy/mummy to love them - instead of accepting any true, genuine and actual unconditional love right in front of their eyes RL people will reject it as being only conditional and false, so instead will save up their hurt and their stresses for a group session in order to jump into the lap of a coach and be like a baby. The real world is seen as conditional, fake, false and unreal while RL is safe, true and real. Thus is created the 'them-and-us' mentality which divides people from their families and friends. Greg, and coaches also split up couples and marriages as well. Every part of people's lives is managed by their coaches. However, very cleverly, there is anti-litigation clauses in everything. This organisation promotes and gets people to believe that everything they are doing is their own choice, that the person chose what to do at every step of the way. Clever. But if you don't follow what daddy says, then you are not only 'not taking RealLove seriously' which means that RL cannot help you if you don't do what it says to do, or that you are 'not taking your self seriously' and clearly don't want to be a better person at all. However, in the terms of agreement there is a clause which states that RealLove takes no responsibility whatsoever for anything said, advised, or information given by a coach upon which the person acts on. Like I said, clever. The terms also state that coaches will use any and all types of resources to help their clients - yet they don't. What is recommended is a complete and utter immersion into RealLove. We're talking reading all the books, not just once. Going to groups regularly. Having a coach and having calls regularly and seeing the coach for one-to-one's when you can. Watching Greg chat videos as much as you can. Joining in the nightly telephone conference calls. Joining up for the courses and seminars. Joining the 12-month program. Having an intervention. All this costs thousands and will go on for many years. This is not coaching. All this stuff is Greg Baer's RL principles churned over and over and over so that the person becomes totally embroiled in it. They gradually see the world outside of RealLove as bad and uncomfortable as well as all the people in it as bad and unloving while RealLove becomes their safe haven where they can be truly their self. This is not teaching unconditional love by any stretch of the imagination. It is totally unhealthy.
Yes, thank you for noticing all the constant contradictions too! I am so glad it is not just me. This is a dark and sinister organisation not only preying on people's vulnerabilities but destroying relationships and families and even distorting the viewpoints and changing the perspectives of well rounded individuals.
I don't know how to get people out of this, I really don't. I have tried, but I only get verbally attacked in the process. It is difficult to get them out because it is drummed into them that anyone outside of RealLove does not have their best interests at heart. That they have conditional motives and don't really love you, they people are just saying it. I really feel for you. I also can't believe that this sort of thing is happening right in front of our eyes.
I really wish I could help, but I am totally flummoxed myself as to what to do.